- This topic has 20 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated January 27, 2019 at 4:15 pm by Anonymous.
23 January 2019 at 12:01 #2437Admiral
Gentlemen, to say that I’ve been pleased by the general improvement in fleet speed since we have held our information settings would be an vast understatement. I’m delighted the races are now tighter than ever and we all are having much more fun sailing them.
This general improvement does however have a dark side.
As the whole fleet now is often bunched up tightly for most of every race, the opportunity for conflict and inconsiderate behaviour in the heat of the moment is likely to be more frequent.
Nobody wants to be a the ‘bad guy’ by insisting on strict adherence to the rules, or even voice a protest when perhaps we have been wronged. We sail together because we enjoy it and we have a lot of fun doing so.
The time is right for us now to have an ‘agreed upon’ set of rules and etiquette standards. The aim being to ensure smooth conduct of races and continuation of the good humour we currently enjoy.
If you agree or disagree with this sentiment please make your voice heard by responding to this post. Just fill in the response box below this post and click on ‘Reply’.
23 January 2019 at 12:46 #2438Admiral
The penalty for any infringement by the way is a 360 deg turn. It this tight racing we have now it is far, far better to back off than lose 3 or 4 places doing a penalty turn you could have easily avoided.
I should like to start the ball rolling with a couple of obvious ones.
1. Starboard boat has Right Of Way (ROW).
This is the most basic rule of all and must be adhered to at ALL times with NO exceptions. Boats on Starboard tack have ROW over any on Port tack, up or down wind.
2. Giving Mark Room to the inside boat.
Without getting into drawn out discussions and technical explanations, it simply means allowing the inside boat at a mark to have room to make ‘their’ turn without being rammed by you. Now this topic usually spirals down into overlaps and distances out from a mark that an overlap occurs etc etc. blah, blah.
This is making something easy to understand more complex than it is.
If there is a boat or any part of a boat between you and a mark, give them plenty of room to make ‘their’ turn. ie, dont start making your turn until they do.
There are a couple of times during a race where this is likely to occur. At the starting line and tacking in front of another boat right in front of a mark
Again, common sense and etiquette tells you what must happen here.
At the ‘favoured’ end of a starting line if there is no room between the boat closest to the mark and the mark itself DON’T try to push in. Instead, move further down the line and start there. You will avoid the ‘rafting up’ and conflict that often occurs in that situation and you are also much more likely to get cleaner air and a faster start.
At any mark, don’t try to cut in (barging) between another boat and the mark itself by tacking right in front of that other boat. It’s poor form, is penalised by the RRS and is unnecessary. Ducking under them or sailing further past their line before tacking yourself will often result in you being in a better position on the next leg anyway.
Ok, there is a start, now it’s up to you to voice your opinion on good and simple rules to follow that will make our sailing experience more enjoyable…..
Another thought …
The more I do this, the more convinced I am that the percentage sailing strategy is to avoid congestion and keep looking out in front of your boat at all times. A distance of anything up to 5 metres ahead will alert you to incoming dangers that might cost you distance, places, or the race itself
23 January 2019 at 16:37 #2439Kermit
OHHH BUGGAR IM FIRST IN so be it…. good rules there let me include one more for discussion hitting a buoy or in this stupid generation …girl I would like to see no penalty like ya gotta do a 360 for touching it in my opinion that’s dumb if a fella or chickie babe hits a buoy / girl so be it . if their in with a chance to win or get a good place there should be no penalty for it : example
I was second to the finish behind a rather shabby slack dopey black thing …..that was soooo lucky to get in front of me when at the finish line he done a 360 for some infringement buoy/ girl bashing way back I presume that sucked he won fair an square I got no pleasure from the first place after all the hard work keeping me off his back only to forfeit his wining place at the line if in the real world that’s the way it is then I say…….. not for us now someone might say that’s the rules … no not if we don’t want it long tall has put it out there for discussion this is our club our rules lets make em for us….. is there more rules we have you don’t like post it for debate or accept it …… Second Rule green boats start first no exceptions (i like that one )
23 January 2019 at 17:36 #2440Pete
Col, great start to sorting out a couple of the issues that have been raised by some of our sailors, including the Pink one.
Are there any reasonably standard sets of rules being used by other similar RC yachting groups that we could look at discussing over coffee after one of our racing sessions at the Duck?
All we need to know is that Pink rules!!
23 January 2019 at 18:10 #2441Admiral
Good point Kermit, I’m with you on not having to take a losing penalty when you have only just brushed the outside of a bouy as it’s rounded.
Taking Pete’s Point of view on what other clubs do is a good idea too. Just to put those two ideas together for a minute, I read about one club on the mainland that don’t penalise the touching of distant bouys, only close ones. This is sensible as none of us have flash eyesight anymore and judging distances is hard to do.
So, to summarise, if we made a local rule that touching the outside of a distant bouy is a non-penalty, but touching say a start bouy, (that is right in front of us) would be a penalty.
How does that sound?
NB while this would work for our own sail days, it will not in the case of a next level competition, ie The upcoming Summer Series Tasmanian Championships we are hosting in March.
23 January 2019 at 18:40 #2442Kermit
Thank you longtall that is the answer long distance buoys no penalty that i recon is fair because of distance ie eyesight close buoys/ start finish = penalty cool … except for pink boats and black boats they should be tossed off the pond straight away
23 January 2019 at 19:19 #2443Admiral
Just a couple more that have surfaced from the handout from Kyle on Tuesday. This sheet is called the “10 Racing Rules for Radio Sailing”.
I’ve not duplicated those already spelled out above, just those not already mentioned there which I believe are relevant to us.
~ Windward keeps clear of leeward (you are to leeward when the other boat is closer to where the wind is coming from than you)
~ Astern keeps clear of boat ahead (you are ahead when the other boat is completely behind a line drawn at right angles to your transom)
~ Keep clear when tacking or gybing
~ If you have violated a rule take a penalty immediately, don’t wait to be called out on it.
23 January 2019 at 21:29 #2444Kermit
Those of us with no sailing experience other than RC sailing would be wetting there nickers with that last lot of gobbley gloob it might make sense to real sailors that compete in big races and those that want rules in RC yachting to run their life.because they need it . but for those of us non big boat sailors oh my god what is this real big boat sailors need to remember we the RC players don’t want to sail like that we want to play with the widdle ones and have fun and that does not include ridiculous leeward behind your transom at right angles and trying to remember why were on the water …. most of us with dwindling eye sight memory loss wobbly legs sore hips lung problems and still married have enough problems getting to the pond my advice keep it simple… keep it very simple those that are so keen to enter the word of rules might like to join other clubs that cater for them but for me narh…… lets have fun….. these are my thoughts only…others can say what they wish an please do so so in conclusion green beats pink
23 January 2019 at 21:49 #2445Predator
I’m afraid I must agree with Kermit that its getting looking like getting way too complicated, the Risdon sailors will love the rules (and there is nothing wrong with that) but that is what you may well be heading for, Risdon at another venue, just like Montrose.
Rules or lack thereof never hindered fun sailing @ Lauderdale, DSS, Cygnet, Franklin, Kellevie & I’m sure the list goes on. These sites are just guys & gals enjoying the hobby of RC sailing without all the baggage, just for fun.
If you had stopped at Rule 1 then that would have been a good starting point. Wait till all the NON sailors fully understand and comply with that one then if absolutely necessary introduce another and so on.
Suits some, probably not others.
Just my 2 bobs worth.
Note: I will be off line till next Monday so no doubt will have plenty of hot discussion to catch up with then.
24 January 2019 at 08:18 #2446Admiral
Great feedback so far thank you. Still a lot of voices not yet heard. C’mon guys have your say!
The feedback I keep hearing outside this forum is there needs to be something in place whilst still keeping the racing fun and light hearted. This is achievable, but will only work if done in the spirit of honourable sportsmanship.
Self regulation of a few simple guidelines will keep the racing fun and enjoyable for everyone.
25 January 2019 at 09:41 #2448Uncle G
This is what we do on Sunday’s at the canal.
· Starboard boat has the right of way.
· Running boats give way to boats going into the wind. (Saves a lot of confusion)
· Windward boat keeps clear.
· Overtaking boat keep clear.
· Give room to the inside boat going around marks.
· Give other boats plenty of “shore-room” or “weed-room”, don’t wait until they call.
· Miss a buoy, then go around it again.
· Hit a buoy, it’s up to the skipper to do a 360.
· No protests.
We don’t have much trouble with boats hitting the buoys, as there is a good chance that your keel will get caught on the buoys anchor line, and as there is no rescue boat, you have to wait for a favourable back wind or go for a swim. So normally everyone give them a wide berth.
The results of the races are not recorded, if you win, you will get a handicap for the next race.
We have had a few members from “that” other club that sail IOM’s lately come and have a sail with us, and all have commented on how much more enjoyable it is sailing this way.
25 January 2019 at 12:13 #2449Kermit
UNCLE Gs List of rules are the bees knees in my option not many and well explained…. an a dummy like me can get it With the exception of hitting a buoy as said before (distance eye sight etc ) if that one is out replace it with “for gods sake avoid a collision at all costs” The one about barging is an interesting one think of this mass of boats tracking for the first buoy all with good wind arriving at the mark near or at the same time one boat is Slow to turn he takes out x amount of boats the others still bunched strive for the next buoy still bunched there is always going to be barging as much as you don’t want it to be so I think barging in this instance is unavoidable even if a separation on that run is there….. at the buoy every one is going to try to go close to the mark to turn because that’s were you want to be this usually occurs at the first and second marker so the answer lies there ….. my thought for this…. move these turn buoys further out or only one turn buoy allowing the fleet to spread out thoughts any one One last one when its decided …….our membership card is big enough for the rules to be printed on so “why not “
25 January 2019 at 12:35 #2450Admiral
You raise an interesting point about barging at the first mark Kermit. Its well agreed that you must give room to the inside boat at a mark, however what everyone misses (and what causes raftups), is that you must wait and delay your turn until that inside boat begins THEIRS. It will never work if the outside boat makes a decision about how much room to give the inside boat. With our poor vision, as you mention, it is impossible to see how much room you are leaving him and how much poor vision he has in judging it as well. The way to prevent raftups and boat contact is to wait, delay your turn until you see that the inside boat is making their turn, and then start to make yours.
26 January 2019 at 22:57 #2453Anonymous
Not sure if i can put links up, but there are youtube videos on race rules and a lot of sites with the rules, they are not hard to find, the rules are the same as they are for the big boats, with an exception on when infringing on another boat we only do one 360 turn, (i think it should be two might deter some) which you should do off the racing line not in font of other boats, if a boats has to alter course while your doing a penalty you have to do another one., you have no rights while your doing your penalty, a penalty must be done straight away not on the next leg or at the end of the race, if your in a fleet you must sail out of the race to do your penalty, to bad if you loose ground that’s the idea of a penalty to prevent you from doing it again.
Racing is fun when every one has a go at learning the rules, and everyone follows the rules.
We all like to win, but at the end of the day it’s only a toy boat race, you only get a name for yourself if you push the envelope of the rules.
To finish of my rant: the inside boats only gets buoy room at the mark if the inside boat has the overlap, (overlap is when the inside boat’s bow is past the stern of the outside boat within the three boat lengths of the buoy ) if not, it has no buoy room rights and must tack out of the way and circle back around the fleet making sure you do not infringe on any other boat, if you do not lay the mark and tack in the zone to get a lay line to go around the buoy, you loose all rights and must keep clear of all other boats rounding the mark, you step out of line you loose your place.
Kermit said it, avoid collision at all cost even if your the boat in the right it’s still your job to avoid the collision worry about the penalty then you can not alter course to cause a collision to gain a penalty ie: leeward boat can not steer up and hit windward boat to make them do a penalty if you cause a collision the penalty falls back on the lee boat, you must sail a proper course ie. you can not zig zag to try and prevent a boat from over taking you, you can’t run a boat of the course or more than three boat lengths past a buoy.
i should stop now, you did ask Longtall, lol, i could go all night to that end if your going to race you need to do it properly, or you just don’t put the buoys in the water, and have a nice sail around, I’ll drop the mic there, and wait for the back lash.
27 January 2019 at 08:53 #2455Admiral
Thanks Dickie, there is a whole lot of stuff you’ve put up there and it’s all interesting and relevant however I believe what we should be aiming for is simple clarity.
The simpler and clearer we can make it the more easily understood it will be and the more closely they will be followed.
Thinking we shape them down to a handful that are logical and easily understood by everyone.
27 January 2019 at 10:24 #2456Anonymous
That’s ok for the duck pond and the canal, but if your going to keep results everyone has to be on the same page, when you travel to another venue such as risdon brook that runs the proper rules you will be behind the eight ball and upset the other sailors when you infringe on other boats.
i still stand my comment that if your going to do it, do it right. It’s not fair on other competitors if you don’t learn the right way, it’s really not that hard! it’s all about being a good sportsman and a fair sailor.
http://www.bcya.com/Misc/BasicRacingRules.pdf at least you should know these rules to start with
http://ryeyachtclub.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Australian-Sailing-2017-2020-Racing-Rules-of-Sailing-with-Prescriptions.pdf section 2 has the rules spelled out reasonably clear. there’s only one way the right way
27 January 2019 at 11:25 #2457Kermit
DICKY cobber, your right of couse Risdon brook dam and others sail by the rule book to the letter and my friend that is not what we want at the pond non competitive sailors at the pond like most of us o’l farts do not go to Risdon or the other places because of that reason because were happy at the pond once a week doing our thing with a set of rules that that are sensible and easy to understand that’s why right now were getting it down …we just do not want to compete with others that live an need rules to run their life /fun think of it as a stranger comes to a our pond to play finds how we sail he can stay or go his choice members of our little group I believe have been looking for Shangra-La as another venue for the 65 and 95 to race against ourselves and other like minded o’l farts we have found it at the pond lets not turn it into Risdon brook or other rule in-festered die hard places … we have a few members that do sail at those other places they know the rules an they still sail there when ever but you know what cobber when they come back we hear of the back biting the nastiness of some of the members the cheating is that fun sailing might be to them win… at any cost .our philosophy have fun ..once a week now you might be thinking well what about the competition coming at the pond I guess those of us that are going to compete will in fact try to grasp the complexities of the rules and will compete under them but those die hard rules will be deleted from our memories after the meet I assure you
27 January 2019 at 11:28 #2458Admiral
Well said Kermit. 👍
27 January 2019 at 12:25 #2459Anonymous
Without rules there’s chaos, enjoy!
27 January 2019 at 14:59 #2461Kermit
hallo again dickie cobber well my friend if chaos is boats crashing and mates going crook at each other then for the past year or so we have had a dream time with common sense rules …. chaos .. we do have rules.. ones that we decided upon…. ones we wish to govern us… an the reason we have opened this rule issue up is to perfect the existing ones not to add complicated wish wash our members are ….bless em… are fun sailors some of em or most don’t even bother to read the site info just the next day out info from it that’s great that’s their thing no worries we sail at the pond with the intent of beating the best we have on the day that’s our fun….. are we slack…. sure are… are we non functional no way do we enjoy our one day in the week you bet your sweet bibbie we do and without complicated rules .. chaos …. as we have proved with ever expanding new members coming in we are definitely not in a chaos state ay join us or leave us no worries I think i’ve run my bit cant be bothered to write any more on the subject but that’s just me …… kermit la frog
27 January 2019 at 16:15 #2462Anonymous
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